On the new ToS.

लिखा द्वारा clovis1122, 15.03.2015 at 15:54

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 15.03.2015 at 13:19

लिखा द्वारा Fockmeeard, 14.03.2015 at 23:46

UH-OH SOMEBODY GO ALERT ESTONIA GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE A RULE BREAKER!!!!

Seriously, it's a game. Get over yourself.

You have shown me time-and-time again that your grasp of what goes into the conception of literally any project is minuscule. I know damn well that many cartographers spend days, weeks, perhaps even months working on their creations, never to see them have any limelight whatsoever do to low-quality RP and 13 year-old wet dream maps that inhabit the bulk of your average AtWar social-outcast's day. Saying this is imply "just a game" when so much effort goes into creating such things is an asinine statement, to say the very least. Perhaps you should get over yourself.

There are two players.

One of then spend entire day making a map of his own sake.

The other research what does the community likes and made a map related (RP)

How do you ever find it logical that first player complains about second player's map being popular?

If you want to make a popular map, you should research first what does the community wants. Or create by youself a brand New style, which doesn't always work.

I am sorry clovis but anyone who spends 20 minutes on forums will find that the community hates RP, so your argument is invalid. Anyone who spends time researching anything makes maps that take tons of time and arent sloppy like most versions of RP. Those players who are obsessed with RP are almost never represented in the forums and imo its nearly impossible to say they are the active "community" since they are off in their own little world of fake diplomacy and hopeless politics.

>implying all the community see the forum
lol, most people that visits the forum are 3 vs 3 players that hates rp, the rest imitates them by saying how shitty rp is but in game chat, and the rest are nazi mapmakers.

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 16:49

>implying all the community see the forum
lol, most people that visits the forum are 3 vs 3 players that hates rp, the rest imitates them by saying how shitty rp is but in game chat, and the rest are nazi mapmakers.

and that is all a player can see by looking on the forums, so what am i missing here? clovis thinks that looking a the community will show that RP is the best part of atwar and is loved by everyone, which is so untrue, in the active community, RP is hated, sure RP players love RP but they are almost never on the forums or actively in aspects of the game that are considered the community. I do count every player as part of the game but just playing games and not doing anything else doesnt make a person an active part of the gaming community.

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 15.03.2015 at 13:19

You have shown me time-and-time again that your grasp of what goes into the conception of literally any project is minuscule. I know damn well that many cartographers spend days, weeks, perhaps even months working on their creations, never to see them have any limelight whatsoever do to low-quality RP and 13 year-old wet dream maps that inhabit the bulk of your average AtWar social-outcast's day. Saying this is imply "just a game" when so much effort goes into creating such things is an asinine statement, to say the very least. Perhaps you should get over yourself.

That's cute, but you've clearly misunderstood me. I know very well the extents of the time it takes to create a map.

But here's a little secret; The admins never asked ANY of you to devote hours and hours of your own time to these maps. You were never called upon to create maps. You made your own choice to spend your time and nothing was ever guaranteed or promised to you in return for your time.

You figure that when you devote hours of your own time into something, you should be rewarded just because you spent your own time into it. Sorry, but your time is not that valuable. Nobody's time is.

If I devote half my life writing a book, does that mean that I should be well praised and given awards just because I took half my life to write a good book? No.

Life does not work in the way that you want it to. Working hard does not mean success and devoting lots of time does not mean rewards.

This is where the phrase "Get over yourself" comes into play. You think your time is so damn valuable the admins should bend over backwards to please your ass just because you spent months of your own time (pretty sad if that's the way you spend your free time btw) doing something nobody ever asked you to do.

That's like going to somebody's house, completely redoing their front lawn (mowing, planting, pulling weeds exc) and then knocking at the person's front door and demanding $1000 because you worked so hard to redo their front lawn even though that person never asked you to do it.

Because you and ever other mapmaker thinks that the admins suddenly owe you something for doing something they never asked you to do, they had to update the ToS with something that should have already been implied; That the admins owe you nothing and you hold no rights to these maps.

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 15:58

I am sorry clovis but anyone who spends 20 minutes on forums will find that the community hates RP, so your argument is invalid. Anyone who spends time researching anything makes maps that take tons of time and arent sloppy like most versions of RP. Those players who are obsessed with RP are almost never represented in the forums and imo its nearly impossible to say they are the active "community" since they are off in their own little world of fake diplomacy and hopeless politics.

Well I know nothing about Map Making, but i'd to clarify two important pierces of information:

1. Not all members of AtWar community are constantly on forums. Based on the definition of community, there are people that never ever used the forums.

2. The default preset/system for say how popular is one map is the number of plays. RP May be bad map, but the fact that it is being played disqualified your argument. If it was a bad map, people would stop playing it, wouldn't they?

Anyway no idea how is RP related to this thread. I just used it as an example for show gardevoir that you cannot use "effort" as a justifier, since you are the one who choose how much effort will you put on it... But you went straight at critizing RP XD

EDIT: just read you replied to havok using the term "active community"... In which period of time? Just saying we were talking about the community as a whole, not just one part of it (and yeah, active people of the community is just one part of it).

लिखा द्वारा Fockmeeard, 15.03.2015 at 17:25

That's like going to somebody's house, completely redoing their front lawn (mowing, planting, pulling weeds exc) and then knocking at the person's front door and demanding $1000 because you worked so hard to redo their front lawn even though that person never asked you to do it.

Thank you for this metaphore.

Don't know the english name for it, but its management without a warrant and the worker can remove his work ...repairs, plants ...MAPS!
Of course the owner can keep this increase of assets if he gives a proper compensation to the worker.

Do you condone slavery fock? ...nvm silly question from me. If admins never asked for this ...why do they want ownership over things they didn't ask for? ...nvm i withdraw that question too.

You know ...you guys if you are really this much against map makers best way to help the other side would be to keep your mouth shut and stop posting bullshit.

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 16:57

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 16:49

>implying all the community see the forum
lol, most people that visits the forum are 3 vs 3 players that hates rp, the rest imitates them by saying how shitty rp is but in game chat, and the rest are nazi mapmakers.

and that is all a player can see by looking on the forums, so what am i missing here? clovis thinks that looking a the community will show that RP is the best part of atwar and is loved by everyone, which is so untrue, in the active community, RP is hated, sure RP players love RP but they are almost never on the forums or actively in aspects of the game that are considered the community. I do count every player as part of the game but just playing games and not doing anything else doesnt make a person an active part of the gaming community.

Indeed, rp isn't the best part of the game,however, by your logic, the ''active community'' is the one that participates on the forum, you will see that they barely play any custom map or simply doesn't play at all, you can see it here : http://es.atwar-game.com/forum/whovisit.php?topic_id=18346

clovis said:
One of then spend the entire day making a map of his own sake.
The other research what does the community likes and make a map related (RP).
How do you ever find it logical that the first player complains about the second player's map being popular?
If you want to make a popular map, you should research first what does the community wants. Or create by youself a brand New style, which doesn't
always work.
this is true, you can see wich map community likes by watching how many plays tha maps have,even if tempted rp is a bad map, it had like 1-2 k plays(im saying a random number)while a good custom map have 100-300 plays (random number again) a custom map can be 100 times better than the rp , but the people that plays will choose rp because that is what they want, players will play what they want, and a map maker can't blame rp for that.

you said:
I am sorry clovis but anyone who spends 20 minutes on forums will find that the community hates RP
this is not true, community does not hate rp, forum does,and most of the people that participates of it.

you said:
Those players who are obsessed with RP are almost never represented in the forums and imo its nearly impossible to say they are the active
"community" since they are off in their own little world of fake diplomacy and hopeless politics.
does anyone represent scenario players in forum? correct me if i am wrong, but there isn't any scenario player in the forum able to represent all of them, and, in fact, they are rp players too.

you said:
in the active community, RP is hated, sure RP players love RP but they are almost never on the forums or actively in aspects of the game that are
considered the community.
have you ever seen a topic criticizing custom maps, besides rp ofcourse? probably no, but, if you have played 3vs3 you surely have seen players being called rp noobs that, if fact, they don't play rp at all, they play custom maps, for a 3 vs 3 player, or, the 'community' anyone that does not play 3 vs 3 is a noob. the aspects that community consider is europe, there is a topic in which they want to nerf a strategy only because is OP in 1 country, in 1 gameplay mode, with 1 kind of settings.

overall:
the community, by your definition, gives a shit about anything that isn't in the default europe map. a custom map is the same as rp for them, rp is a part of the game, and is an important one, just like custom maps, and 3 vs 3.

EDIT:you can see here the 'community' http://es.atwar-game.com/forum/whovisit.php?topic_id=18346:

लिखा द्वारा Goblin, 15.03.2015 at 17:51

You know ...you guys if you are really this much against map makers best way to help the other side would be to keep your mouth shut and stop posting bullshit.

Best tip ever

लिखा द्वारा Aetius, 14.03.2015 at 21:03

Is this even legal? Changing terms of service without notification?

It is illegal here in the states. I assume since their website is accessible here in the states, these laws should apply to atWar as well.

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 15:15

what accusation? that the admins are power-hungry, greedy jerks? this is nothing new everyone knows that, when was the last time we got an actual beneficial update that didnt turn out broken and cause more issues?

How about the new cw system??

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 15:15

I havent seen one in ages, we are still waiting on html5, if they ever get around to working on it and I see no effort to actually use the money we put into this game other than for their own personal use.

So... in your opinion, how much money have they earned and what are they spending it on?

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 15:15

The proof is in the lack of improvement in the game and the fact that we still have the worst servers ever, there is a reason why everyone jokes about atwar servers, cause they are probably from the 1980s and meant to add numbers not run a major game. This game is broken and the proof is there whether you choose to acknowledge its existence or not.

Do you know how much those servers cost?

लिखा द्वारा Goblin, 15.03.2015 at 17:51

लिखा द्वारा Fockmeeard, 15.03.2015 at 17:25

That's like going to somebody's house, completely redoing their front lawn (mowing, planting, pulling weeds exc) and then knocking at the person's front door and demanding $1000 because you worked so hard to redo their front lawn even though that person never asked you to do it.

Thank you for this metaphore.

Don't know the english name for it, but its management without a warrant and the worker can remove his work ...repairs, plants ...MAPS!
Of course the owner can keep this increase of assets if he gives a proper compensation to the worker.

Do you condone slavery fock? ...nvm silly question from me. If admins never asked for this ...why do they want ownership over things they didn't ask for? ...nvm i withdraw that question too.

You know ...you guys if you are really this much against map makers best way to help the other side would be to keep your mouth shut and stop posting bullshit.

"Worker" You're a worker? Were you hired by atwar? Did you sign a contract? Were you promised rewards? No, you are not a worker. You are a volunteer. You worked knowing there will be no benefit. You worked knowing that there is no compensation as no compensation was mentioned when you brought atwar features to build a map.

You volunteered your time and gave atwar a map for people to play. People play and enjoy your map. But then you decide to remove the map. What happens? People get angry and start flooding chats. However, what if you never made the map in the first place? The people that would have enjoyed your map would have played another map and been just as happy.

So, by allowing you to make and take down the maps, you are getting control to start riots and have members PM mods/admins complaining about the missing map. Obviously that is annoying for the rest of atwar and nobody deserves to log onto atwar and see a bunch of low ranks say "WHERE IS THE MAP??" All of which would be avoided if you a.) never made the map in the first place or b.) never had the power to take it down.

So. you are left with two options:

Cut the ability to make maps

or

Force the maps to stay online forever.

Obviously the 2nd is the better option.

You mapmakers should be allowed to decide if you want your maps offline or online. You should not be forced to comply with the new rules. But you should be forced to decide whether your new maps will comply or not comply with the new rules. If your maps do not want to comply, then they are offline forver.

लिखा द्वारा theFuehrer, 15.03.2015 at 18:31

लिखा द्वारा Aetius, 14.03.2015 at 21:03

Is this even legal? Changing terms of service without notification?

It is illegal here in the states. I assume since their website is accessible here in the states, these laws should apply to atWar as well.

this is where i dont understand how the internet can be defined by a specific countries laws, whose does it follows? the website says they follow Estonian law but i dont live in estonia so why does that matter to me

लिखा द्वारा RaulPB, 15.03.2015 at 18:57

Do you know how much those servers cost?

Idc how much they cost its called an investment, if they are really that broke that they dont have anything to invest in something that would make this game potentially more popular then they shouldnt be in charge of this game because they have failed in managing it then.

Do i really know how much they make? no, but i have an idea that its probably enough to at least put more than "effort" into this game with no results showing.

लिखा द्वारा Fockmeeard, 15.03.2015 at 17:25

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 15.03.2015 at 13:19

You have shown me time-and-time again that your grasp of what goes into the conception of literally any project is minuscule. I know damn well that many cartographers spend days, weeks, perhaps even months working on their creations, never to see them have any limelight whatsoever do to low-quality RP and 13 year-old wet dream maps that inhabit the bulk of your average AtWar social-outcast's day. Saying this is imply "just a game" when so much effort goes into creating such things is an asinine statement, to say the very least. Perhaps you should get over yourself.

That's cute, but you've clearly misunderstood me. I know very well the extents of the time it takes to create a map.

But here's a little secret; The admins never asked ANY of you to devote hours and hours of your own time to these maps. You were never called upon to create maps. You made your own choice to spend your time and nothing was ever guaranteed or promised to you in return for your time.

You figure that when you devote hours of your own time into something, you should be rewarded just because you spent your own time into it. Sorry, but your time is not that valuable. Nobody's time is.

If I devote half my life writing a book, does that mean that I should be well praised and given awards just because I took half my life to write a good book? No.

Life does not work in the way that you want it to. Working hard does not mean success and devoting lots of time does not mean rewards.

This is where the phrase "Get over yourself" comes into play. You think your time is so damn valuable the admins should bend over backwards to please your ass just because you spent months of your own time (pretty sad if that's the way you spend your free time btw) doing something nobody ever asked you to do.

That's like going to somebody's house, completely redoing their front lawn (mowing, planting, pulling weeds exc) and then knocking at the person's front door and demanding $1000 because you worked so hard to redo their front lawn even though that person never asked you to do it.

Because you and ever other mapmaker thinks that the admins suddenly owe you something for doing something they never asked you to do, they had to update the ToS with something that should have already been implied; That the admins owe you nothing and you hold no rights to these maps.

You think I refer solely to the aspects of creation only provided by Protobytes? I refer to the countless hours of research, planning, resource-making, testing, marketing, and fixing that goes along with it. My time is just as valuable as your's. I'm not sure whether this is only a me thing, but I also design the images for my maps; Fonts, Textures, backgrounds, etc. That intellectual is not the IP of Amok & Ivan. If they even tried to claim it was, I would have them in an American court within a fortnight. As implied: Those are external resources and intellectual properties. I can't say for certain the creations made with AtWar itself are owned by it (Borders/Capitals, whatever), but the resources put into the maps are definitely not the property of anyone but the creator or original owner. If Amok & Ivan only mean to claim that they own what is made within AtWar, than they need a new legal assistant as their ToS is (as I stated in my OP) god awful to read, and unfathomably vague.

Now, personally? I feel as though you need a reality check. By "this isn't a game", I refer to the facets that go into making a map, not playing the damn game. You're fishing for insults to give me, yet you're only digging yourself an even deeper hole of shit. Stop replying if your only goal is to impede upon a concept which you don't even understand.

I've read this thread... so much good content, i don't know where to begin, so let's start back at the ToS changes... and why they may have been done that way...

Based on the initial post, let's assume the map creators provide a positive addition to AW, by creating excellent maps...

Let's put this in a legal perspective then - the map makers, who tend to make some fairly steep demands over control, could, in a legal framework, make a valid argument that their contributions are adding value to the game.

They would then have a claim on profits, proceeds and control of AW, if there were no ToS protection.

So Amok and Ivan wisely put out a ToS which would protect their sorry asses in the event mapmakers went to some court...

Now, i don't know anyone personally... not Amok, Ivan, or any mapmaker, BUT, based on the threads and the tone of the posts, who would be more likely to go to court in order to make money :

Ivan and Amok, who:
♦ maintain they do this in their part time now, that the game doesn't make enough to pay the bills, and is more or less a hobby and joy for them.
♦ don't seem particularly aggressive, disagreeable, or argumentative in their forum posts
♦ don't make many demands from the community, calling for bans of certain players, or more rights and recognition for their creation.
♦ seem authentic in their wish to have non-commercial principals in their marketing of the game, in that it is not 'pay to win' and uses no annoying 'advertisements'

Mapmakers, who:
♦ some of whom, have hundreds of hours of free time to make wonderful maps, yet do not seem to view their maps as 'gifts' to benefit the AW community.
♦ some of whom, have posted frequently aggressive, disagreeable or argumentative posts on the forums.
♦ some of whom, make demands from the community, calling for ban-lists, unilateral decision making, recognition for their creations, and are dissatisfied even when these demands are conceded.
♦ some of whom, despite their abilities in cartography, seem to wish to derive a profit from their creations (as indicated in the initial post), and feel their work is what maintains the quality of the game, and keeps it alive:

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 13.03.2015 at 21:53

.... I must protest to the fact that I do not wish for anyone but myself to gain royalties off of my own work. ...

.... Without any sort of quality anymore, your game will die entirely, beyond players eternally addicted, or those stricken with poverty and living in the slums of Whogivesafuckistan....

i could go on, but i think this covers the basic sense of who would be more likely to initiate legal action:

So, Ivar and Amok have simply removed the leverage from the mapmakers to go to court... they are protecting AW, and the game, from having it shut down in a legal process.

NOW, this information could change, IF it turns out Ivar and Amok are secretly selling maps made by map-makers at Sotheby's and E-Bay for outrageous profits:

This seems absurd, but this is exactly what the mapmakers seem to be concerned is happening to their creations.

So, if the above information is reasonably accurate, is it unreasonable for Ivar and Amok to make a change in ToS to protect AW and the community from legal process?

Keeping that question in mind, sure if AW was run by a corporation or the government, absolutely, yes, we should all absolutely have concerns that the ToS was a back-alley approach to steal the hard work of map-makers to benefit their own pockets. However, THIS is AW with a staff of what, two people? It is not some multi-national or military backed government. You have to look at the integrity of the people who are creating the ToS, and what their intent is.

It seems Ivan and Amok have the intent of not having AW fall into the hands of 'some' mapmakers, who, if they went to court, would probably achieve nothing more than destroy the game as the court costs incurred wouldn't cover the costs of running the game.

I have no sense that Ivan and Amok have the intent of becoming billionaire's on the exploitation of map-makers hard work. (though i agree, in a profit and litigation driven culture, i can see why some players might reel at the ToS)

===
i look forward to a further post on this.... ♥

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 15.03.2015 at 19:53

You think I refer solely to the aspects of creation only provided by Protobytes? I refer to the countless hours of research, planning, resource-making, testing, marketing, and fixing that goes along with it. My time is just as valuable as your's. I'm not sure whether this is only a me thing, but I also design the images for my maps; Fonts, Textures, backgrounds, etc. That intellectual is not the IP of Amok & Ivan. If they even tried to claim it was, I would have them in an American court within a fortnight. As implied: Those are external resources and intellectual properties. I can't say for certain the creations made with AtWar itself are owned by it (Borders/Capitals, whatever), but the resources put into the maps are definitely not the property of anyone but the creator or original owner. If Amok & Ivan only mean to claim that they own what is made within AtWar, than they need a new legal assistant as their ToS is (as I stated in my OP) god awful to read, and unfathomably vague.

Now, personally? I feel as though you need a reality check. By "this isn't a game", I refer to the facets that go into making a map, not playing the damn game. You're fishing for insults to give me, yet you're only digging yourself an even deeper hole of shit. Stop replying if your only goal is to impede upon a concept which you don't even understand.

Hi. This is a game. You brought an add-on to this game, you chose to devote a lot of time into planning/creating the map with the addon. End of story.

You claim your intellectual properties, but what about the code that makes the map functional? Is that code written by you? Are the city/capital icons yours? Nope.

If you make the sprites and 3D models for a game, do you own the whole game? Nope. You have your properties while they have they theirs. You combined these properities to make something better.

Once again you are a volunteer, not a worker. Now atwar has updated ToS so you know that when you volunteer you own no rights to the original content and give atwar full consent to keep the map online.

Now, this is unfair to the maps posted before the change. Which is why the admins should send out a PM to those like you who are all butthurt and ask whether your maps will comply with the new ToS or not. If you don't want them to comply, they will be offline forever. If you comply, then you hand over all rights.

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 17:57

-snip-

You can't compare a custom map with a scenario, custom maps don't need 20 people to start, custom maps can't be trolled, custom maps don't need to be balanced.

[---------------------------Community-----------------------]
[Noobs][Scenario Players][Competitive Players]

-Noobs play custom maps the most
-Scenario players play scenarios the most
-Competitive players play in the default map the most

^This is why RP is among the most played custom maps, because no decent player ever plays custom maps.

लिखा द्वारा brianwl, 15.03.2015 at 20:18

I've read this thread... so much good content, i don't know where to begin, so let's start back at the ToS changes... and why they may have been done that way...

Based on the initial post, let's assume the map creators provide a positive addition to AW, by creating excellent maps...

Let's put this in a legal perspective then - the map makers, who tend to make some fairly steep demands over control, could, in a legal framework, make a valid argument that their contributions are adding value to the game.

They would then have a claim on profits, proceeds and control of AW, if there were no ToS protection.

So Amok and Ivan wisely put out a ToS which would protect their sorry asses in the event mapmakers went to some court...

Now, i don't know anyone personally... not Amok, Ivan, or any mapmaker, BUT, based on the threads and the tone of the posts, who would be more likely to go to court in order to make money :

Ivan and Amok, who:
♦ maintain they do this in their part time now, that the game doesn't make enough to pay the bills, and is more or less a hobby and joy for them.
♦ don't seem particularly aggressive, disagreeable, or argumentative in their forum posts
♦ don't make many demands from the community, calling for bans of certain players, or more rights and recognition for their creation.
♦ seem authentic in their wish to have non-commercial principals in their marketing of the game, in that it is not 'pay to win' and uses no annoying 'advertisements'

Mapmakers, who:
♦ some of whom, have hundreds of hours of free time to make wonderful maps, yet do not seem to view their maps as 'gifts' to benefit the AW community.
♦ some of whom, have posted frequently aggressive, disagreeable or argumentative posts on the forums.
♦ some of whom, make demands from the community, calling for ban-lists, unilateral decision making, recognition for their creations, and are dissatisfied even when these demands are conceded.
♦ some of whom, despite their abilities in cartography, seem to wish to derive a profit from their creations (as indicated in the initial post), and feel their work is what maintains the quality of the game, and keeps it alive:

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 13.03.2015 at 21:53

.... I must protest to the fact that I do not wish for anyone but myself to gain royalties off of my own work. ...

.... Without any sort of quality anymore, your game will die entirely, beyond players eternally addicted, or those stricken with poverty and living in the slums of Whogivesafuckistan....

i could go on, but i think this covers the basic sense of who would be more likely to initiate legal action:

So, Ivar and Amok have simply removed the leverage from the mapmakers to go to court... they are protecting AW, and the game, from having it shut down in a legal process.

NOW, this information could change, IF it turns out Ivar and Amok are secretly selling maps made by map-makers at Sotheby's and E-Bay for outrageous profits:

This seems absurd, but this is exactly what the mapmakers seem to be concerned is happening to their creations.

So, if the above information is reasonably accurate, is it unreasonable for Ivar and Amok to make a change in ToS to protect AW and the community from legal process?

Keeping that question in mind, sure if AW was run by a corporation or the government, absolutely, yes, we should all absolutely have concerns that the ToS was a back-alley approach to steal the hard work of map-makers to benefit their own pockets. However, THIS is AW with a staff of what, two people? It is not some multi-national or military backed government. You have to look at the integrity of the people who are creating the ToS, and what their intent is.

It seems Ivan and Amok have the intent of not having AW fall into the hands of 'some' mapmakers, who, if they went to court, would probably achieve nothing more than destroy the game as the court costs incurred wouldn't cover the costs of running the game.

I have no sense that Ivan and Amok have the intent of becoming billionaire's on the exploitation of map-makers hard work. (though i agree, in a profit and litigation driven culture, i can see why some players might reel at the ToS)

===
i look forward to a further post on this.... ♥

I am not sure about all map makers but I have stated many times that I make maps purely out of enjoyment and I have no reason to receive financial compensation for the maps i have made or help made, however these ToS changes do not just protect against us asking for money, but they basically state that we as the creator have no right, we can not even delete the maps we make, how the hell are we supposed to be expected to make content when the rules state that everything is the admins and that they get a say in everything, this goes back to the banlist issue and everything that has been a hot topic as of late. Admins are creating junk rules to choke map makers out of any right of a map maker's map. I acknowledge that the maps are property of atwar but I do not give atwar the right to publish my map if I do not allow it, nor do I allow atwar to say that the rules I have for my map are unfair to the players who probably wouldnt even play my maps most of the time. That is my issue, I don't give a shit about getting money for the maps I make, I do this for fun and this is not fun when the admins wave their cocks around trying to choke us out of everything that we should have a say in.

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 15.03.2015 at 21:03

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 17:57

-snip-

You can't compare a custom map with a scenario, custom maps don't need 20 people to start, custom maps can't be trolled, custom maps don't need to be balanced.

[---------------------------Community-----------------------]
[Noobs][Scenario Players][Competitive Players]

-Noobs play custom maps the most
-Scenario players play scenarios the most
-Competitive players play in the default map the most

^This is why RP is among the most played custom maps, because no decent player ever plays custom maps.

i can compare it, using the definition of 'community' by jaredb027.

लिखा द्वारा Fockmeeard, 15.03.2015 at 20:59

Now, this is unfair to the maps posted before the change. Which is why the admins should send out a PM to those like you who are all butthurt and ask whether your maps will comply with the new ToS or not. If you don't want them to comply, they will be offline forever. If you comply, then you hand over all rights.

This is why the post was made.
Those changes could have been made to the ToS when custom maps were introduced, instead they were added 2 years later without notification, they should have at least taken the time to let people know of the change.

also this part was unnecessary "atWar shall have the right to keep the Custom Maps online even if their creator requests removal" and this is not fully explained " you agree to execute future assignments promptly upon receiving such a request from atWar"

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 21:06

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 15.03.2015 at 21:03

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 17:57

-snip-

You can't compare a custom map with a scenario, custom maps don't need 20 people to start, custom maps can't be trolled, custom maps don't need to be balanced.

[---------------------------Community-----------------------]
[Noobs][Scenario Players][Competitive Players]

-Noobs play custom maps the most
-Scenario players play scenarios the most
-Competitive players play in the default map the most

^This is why RP is among the most played custom maps, because no decent player ever plays custom maps.

i can compare it, using the definition of 'community' by jaredb027.

I said involved and active community, I am sorry but I dont see the 100s of people who play RP using the forums and acting dignified and engaged in improving the community, nor do I see RP players hosting contests or holding positions of supporters or moderators, why not? because while they are apart of this game they do not get involved and they are (for the most part) in their own little corner where they do not branch out and attempt to engage in more parts of the community. Now not all RP players are like this but 99.999999999% are and that is where this issue lies.

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 21:21

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 21:06

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 15.03.2015 at 21:03

लिखा द्वारा IHavok, 15.03.2015 at 17:57

-snip-

You can't compare a custom map with a scenario, custom maps don't need 20 people to start, custom maps can't be trolled, custom maps don't need to be balanced.

[---------------------------Community-----------------------]
[Noobs][Scenario Players][Competitive Players]

-Noobs play custom maps the most
-Scenario players play scenarios the most
-Competitive players play in the default map the most

^This is why RP is among the most played custom maps, because no decent player ever plays custom maps.

i can compare it, using the definition of 'community' by jaredb027.

I said involved and active community, I am sorry but I dont see the 100s of people who play RP using the forums and acting dignified and engaged in improving the community, nor do I see RP players hosting contests or holding positions of supporters or moderators, why not? because while they are apart of this game they do not get involved and they are (for the most part) in their own little corner where they do not branch out and attempt to engage in more parts of the community. Now not all RP players are like this but 99.999999999% are and that is where this issue lies.

true, and everyone else,except(as i said earlier) 3vs3 players, their workshippers, and important mapmakers (a lot f them nazis)

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 21:21

I said involved and active community, I am sorry but I dont see the 100s of people who play RP using the forums and acting dignified and engaged in improving the community, nor do I see RP players hosting contests or holding positions of supporters or moderators, why not? because while they are apart of this game they do not get involved and they are (for the most part) in their own little corner where they do not branch out and attempt to engage in more parts of the community. Now not all RP players are like this but 99.999999999% are and that is where this issue lies.

As an RP player that has been actively involved in the forums since 2014, I'm quite insulted.

So would Sonikr.... whatever the name of that player that started the stupid RP movement was.

लिखा द्वारा International, 15.03.2015 at 21:39

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 21:21

I said involved and active community, I am sorry but I dont see the 100s of people who play RP using the forums and acting dignified and engaged in improving the community, nor do I see RP players hosting contests or holding positions of supporters or moderators, why not? because while they are apart of this game they do not get involved and they are (for the most part) in their own little corner where they do not branch out and attempt to engage in more parts of the community. Now not all RP players are like this but 99.999999999% are and that is where this issue lies.

As an RP player that has been actively involved in the forums since 2014, I'm quite insulted.

So would Sonikr.... whatever the name of that player that started the stupid RP movement was.

ok 2 players, and judging by your number of posts you dont post that much and I havent seen you as much as the people who i was referring too, perhaps if you understood math when i said 99.999999999%, plz think before raging in forums

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 22:55

ok 2 players, and judging by your number of posts you dont post that much and I havent seen you as much as the people who i was referring too, perhaps if you understood math when i said 99.999999999%, plz think before raging in forums

If 2 people represent 0.000000001% of the RP player base, then there must be 200 billion role-players in AtWar. Ivan and Amok must be making so much money.

Stop making up statistics before you accuse others of innumeracy, because right now, it's fairly apparent you don't understand numbers.

Please think before insulting others.

लिखा द्वारा International, 15.03.2015 at 21:39

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 21:21

I said involved and active community, I am sorry but I dont see the 100s of people who play RP using the forums and acting dignified and engaged in improving the community, nor do I see RP players hosting contests or holding positions of supporters or moderators, why not? because while they are apart of this game they do not get involved and they are (for the most part) in their own little corner where they do not branch out and attempt to engage in more parts of the community. Now not all RP players are like this but 99.999999999% are and that is where this issue lies.

As an RP player that has been actively involved in the forums since 2014, I'm quite insulted.

So would Sonikr.... whatever the name of that player that started the stupid RP movement was.

Why would you be insulted? He said not all RP players are like that...

लिखा द्वारा theFuehrer, 16.03.2015 at 00:02

Why would you be insulted? He said not all RP players are like that...

Mostly because he's making up statistics to slander the RP community.

If you put numbers down to support your point, I expect those numbers to be reasonably accurate or, if they are not, to have margin of error clearly marked.

लिखा द्वारा International, 16.03.2015 at 00:06

लिखा द्वारा theFuehrer, 16.03.2015 at 00:02

Why would you be insulted? He said not all RP players are like that...

Mostly because he's making up statistics to slander the RP community.

If you put numbers down to support your point, I expect those numbers to be reasonably accurate or, if they are not, to have margin of error clearly marked.

Personally, I don't think it matters if his numbers are accurate or not. What he is claiming IS true, the majority of RP players do not get involved in anything else besides RP.. if he had said the majority or 75% of RP players don't get involved... it still wouldn't have made a difference here.

Accurate statistics or not.. we are all aware of these type of members.

Don't feel insulted.. I think it's quite obvious he was exaggerating just a bit.

Or... are you claiming RP players are involved? If so, please name a few besides Sonick and myself.

लिखा द्वारा theFuehrer, 16.03.2015 at 00:17

Personally, I don't think it matters if his numbers are accurate or not. What he is claiming IS true, the majority of RP players do not get involved in anything else besides RP.. if he had said the majority or 75% of RP players don't get involved... it still wouldn't have made a difference here.

Accurate statistics or not.. we are all aware of these type of members.

Don't feel insulted.. I think it's quite obvious he was exaggerating just a bit.

Or... are you claiming RP players are involved? If so, please name a few besides Sonick and myself.

So, why can't he have said "majority of" or "most of"? Why did he have to name a statistic, knowing full well it would be wrong?

Exaggeration is all good and well for emotional appeal, but I think this thread is supposed to have more rational discussion than emotional calls.

I don't want to clutter up this thread too much, so if you have any further enquiries, please send me a private message.

लिखा द्वारा Quantum027, 15.03.2015 at 19:12

लिखा द्वारा theFuehrer, 15.03.2015 at 18:31

लिखा द्वारा Aetius, 14.03.2015 at 21:03

Is this even legal? Changing terms of service without notification?

It is illegal here in the states. I assume since their website is accessible here in the states, these laws should apply to atWar as well.

this is where i dont understand how the internet can be defined by a specific countries laws, whose does it follows? the website says they follow Estonian law but i dont live in estonia so why does that matter to me

That is my point. Since we do not live in Estonia.. there laws do not affect us here, nor do they matter. However, since this site is accessible here in the states.. I am pretty certain they should be following American laws.