Should Custom Maps be Community Assets?

लिखा द्वारा Dbacks, 29.10.2015 at 14:47

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 29.10.2015 at 14:42

i am not a mod, i don't want to be a mod, is not my duty to keep the community happy. this topic was made in order to have a discussion about maps being community assets.

I don't care about duty or not. I'm just saying if you want something done, get people to agree with you. This is not the way.

there is a good explanation as of why i choose to use this tone, if you don't like it then leave.

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 29.10.2015 at 14:53

लिखा द्वारा Dbacks, 29.10.2015 at 14:47

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 29.10.2015 at 14:42

i am not a mod, i don't want to be a mod, is not my duty to keep the community happy. this topic was made in order to have a discussion about maps being community assets.

I don't care about duty or not. I'm just saying if you want something done, get people to agree with you. This is not the way.

there is a good explanation as of why i choose to use this tone, if you don't like it then leave.

ugh you're hopeless... GL with your thread, tell me when this tone has achieved anything!

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 29.10.2015 at 14:53

लिखा द्वारा Dbacks, 29.10.2015 at 14:47

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 29.10.2015 at 14:42

i am not a mod, i don't want to be a mod, is not my duty to keep the community happy. this topic was made in order to have a discussion about maps being community assets.

I don't care about duty or not. I'm just saying if you want something done, get people to agree with you. This is not the way.

there is a good explanation as of why i choose to use this tone, if you don't like it then leave.

ugh you're hopeless... GL with your thread, tell me when this tone has achieved anything!

NO! I paid good money to be able to design, craft and play my own maps. That doesn't mean I necessarily want other players taking possession of my hard work, for one so they don't have to, and turn it into their own piece of crap. If I hadn't paid money for this right then I might have a different view on it, but unless the Devs are going to give me my money back then I feel the maps I create our mine.

No of course not, it is insane if you think it should be. It is sickening how much scenario players seem to take maps for granted. The map maker spent weeks, months or even possibly year(s) on a map and for them to lose full control of the map and "make is a community asset" is retarded. First off, the regular community does not know what it is like because they have never made a map so if anything they could possibly give bad advice. Secondly the way I look at it is like a new car project you just did. Lets say you worked on this car for months or even years and then someone changes something that you did not want/like or they take over full possession of it. Does it really seem right?

You guys act as if you're not able to change a few things. Make a suggestion that doesn't allow maps to be cloned. I don't understand why you would only make a map for yourself and not for others to play on it so I agree that they shouldn't be taken down just because a few autists decided they hated mods/AW. map strike anyone?

When a map gets so big (such as WW2, WW1, GGG a few months ago, etc) the map maker has so much influence over the players that play those games and even ones who don't. Too much influence is bad, but is it too much, and is it well earned? Well earned, definitely. Too much, possibly; if the map gets extreme popularity such as the ones mentioned above. Fact of the matter is some map makers make such good maps (or just popular ones, there's a difference ) that they become part of a lot of player's everyday AW life, and sometimes even the sole reason they play the game. Making such a map should be rewarded not punished, but the possibility of it being taken down should also be taken away.

Obviously allowing it to be edited/clones by anyone is a bad idea. That would not only discourage map-makers from making a good map but would make them just take it down before it's a community asset as you call it. When a map reaches a certain number of plays per day though it shouldn't be allowed to be deleted without a mod's AND admin's approval. The reason I say mod and admin is because someone could just be buddies with a mod and convince them to delete it easily, but now they also needs enough reason for an admin to be swayed. Map-makers should be able to hide it for editing though, because gameplay and strategy changes such as the recent one would require several players to edit their maps. It shouldn't be hidden for more than say 10 days (can debate on time), and the reason for them being hidden should be recorded. Obviously some changes might take more than this and if so the map-maker of a popular map should request to a mod for a reason for the prolonged hide. The creators of popular maps should also be rewarded when they reach a certain amount of plays. Maybe 1 protocoin for every 100 plays (does that seem a bit low?), and 100 protocoins for reaching 500,1000, and 1500 plays. Increase the protocoins by 50 for every higher 500 plays.

To arbitrarily take down a map because of personal or political issues is just bad... especially when its popular. People shouldn't be able to have such leverage over people, but they should also be rewarded for actually reaching the point where they have that.

No, would be sad for all the effort the makers put in them, instead grant them something in return of transfering it to the admins prop?

Now tunder how would you feel if i come here and bash you on something that has no repercussions to my needs in the game....

लिखा द्वारा Valetorious, 30.10.2015 at 05:09

The map maker spent weeks, months or even possibly year(s) on a map and for them to lose full control of the map and "make is a community asset" is retarded.

I understand this and agree, but please try to understand what Tactician said, too much influence is bad.

Maps and scenarios must be assets to prevent any possible damage from said influence. To say that admins doesn't have the right to do this is to ignore the fact that the admins were the ones who grave the tools for the MapMakers to do this.

A more even solution would'be to share some revenues (Real Money) to MapMakers based on how much plays their map have. That would encourage players to make maps and receive more profit than simply the sastisfaction of making a map.

If customs maps are really the future of atWar, and I believe it is, then the above suggestion would bring new quality maps to the game and that alone would bring new players to the game.

Bla just realized tact already wrote what I had in mind... Should have read fully before.

The reason about why real money and not in-game reward is because nobody would work for a currency like Protocoins though. Unlike other virtual cirrencies like Bitcoins or even other games currencies like DOTA ones, the protocoins doesn't have accequible power.

Translations were mostly made by players who didn't had any other way to get prem and needed protocoins... But the quality of many of those translations is very cuestionable... Only the group of players who just liked this game actually tried to make quality, accurated translations.

I imagine the same history with giving PCs instead of money to MapMakers. At the end of the day , most popular maps would'be made by players who just liked the stuff and doesn't cares for protocoins.

लिखा द्वारा clovis1122, 29.10.2015 at 14:02

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 29.10.2015 at 13:36

It is played every day at least a few times and remember the threads where autistic wallspammers were crying to republish it...

This should'be enough reason, Tunder.

As njab said The War to End All Wars had become the most popular scenario in atWar, and a lot of players plays it. In fact there is even a clan dedicated solely for play this map. It of course holds a very big importance in the game.

Deleting or hiding the map would cause several players to complain, which had already happened before.

.... on the other hand, I would feel bad if I make a map and the game steal it from me. So maybe Aetius should receive a reward to encourage him to keep working on the map, and that would also encourage other MapMakers to work in their map to reach what Aetius reached.

I'll never make another map personally if this is what I'd gonna happen. I won't spend months making a map for amok to take it from me and give it to the mods to look after. Especially for a trophy with no importance period.

लिखा द्वारा Helly, 30.10.2015 at 11:19

I'll never make another map personally if this is what I'd gonna happen. I won't spend months making a map for amok to take it from me and give it to the mods to look after. Especially for a trophy with no importance period.

It need to happen. The real question is...

Would you give atWar the rights of all your maps for protocoins? If so, then how many?

If no, then how about money? How much (in dollars)?

लिखा द्वारा clovis1122, 30.10.2015 at 11:23

लिखा द्वारा Helly, 30.10.2015 at 11:19

I'll never make another map personally if this is what I'd gonna happen. I won't spend months making a map for amok to take it from me and give it to the mods to look after. Especially for a trophy with no importance period.

It need to happen. The real question is...

Would you give atWar the rights of all your maps for protocoins? If so, then how many?

If no, then how about money? How much (in dollars)?

By the sounds of it I don't have a choice, take my maps take them all but I'll never update them again and I'll never make another. What happens when the sheep get bored and need something new? Mods abused the shit oUT of map makers and almost all of them left.

Answer: "New map makers will rise"

My answer:"since 2013 there have been a dozen successful map makers, the reason being if it was easy anyone would do it"

At this point there are 3 popular map makers left tunder3 aetius and phyruss, when they stab us in the back this last time the quality of maps made will suffer and so will there player base as they leave from boredom.

If a mapmaker accidentally makes something too cancerous and then he can't take it down, it's gg.

लिखा द्वारा 1GodofWar1, 30.10.2015 at 07:23

Now tunder how would you feel if i come here and bash you on something that has no repercussions to my needs in the game....

your "competitive" friends already commented in something that they are illiterate about, that is why i went to your topic to shitpost.

लिखा द्वारा clovis1122, 30.10.2015 at 11:23

लिखा द्वारा Helly, 30.10.2015 at 11:19

I'll never make another map personally if this is what I'd gonna happen. I won't spend months making a map for amok to take it from me and give it to the mods to look after. Especially for a trophy with no importance period.

It need to happen. The real question is...

Would you give atWar the rights of all your maps for protocoins? If so, then how many?

If no, then how about money? How much (in dollars)?

>changing hours of works for a worthless virtual currency that nobody uses.

if the admins had to choose between:
a) giving us real money
b) keeping the status quo

which one do you think they would pick?

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 30.10.2015 at 12:10

if the admins had to choose between:
a) giving us real money
b) keeping the status quo

which one do you think they would pick?

Probably status quo as with so many fails at promotion I doubt they invest money in something like this.

But hey, it is their decisión after all...

Imo they could take the 10℅ of the money that they earn from this game montly, after paying servers, mainternance, etc... And if it is more than $100 dollars, they could give it to the top 5 scenario makers and top 5 custom map makers....

But the question comes again. Would you give away the right to delete your map for $10 or $5 dollars montly? Maybe if your map is extremely popular... $25 dollars? mmm...

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

When a map gets so big (such as WW2, WW1, GGG a few months ago, etc) the map maker has so much influence over the players that play those games and even ones who don't.

We are only having issues with influence, because we allowed a few handful of individual to produce more than 90% of the content out there. (Aetius himself, is responsible for 40% of all the scenario plays).

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

Too much influence is bad, but is it too much, and is it well earned? Well earned, definitely. Too much, possibly; if the map gets extreme popularity such as the ones mentioned above. Fact of the matter is some map makers make such good maps (or just popular ones, there's a difference ) that they become part of a lot of player's everyday AW life, and sometimes even the sole reason they play the game.

We can't take away the "hide" feature just because some people are concern that scenario players will leave atwar if we don't remove it.

You are invited to come and play among "the reich", 5 minutes are enough to make you see our point of view more clearly, perhaps we won't even be discussing this silly topic after that.

this is a brief summary of how map makers change atwar:

Before Map makers:
Map doesn't exist -> Scenario Players play atwar a few days and then leave forever -> No Trouble

Now:
Map is created ->Scenario Players play the custom map and stay because they like it. -> Scenario Players get bored and stop playing the Scenario-> Map makers release a new map -> Scenario Players play the new custom map and like it -> Map maker pulls the plug of the old custom map. -> Repeat.

If this is implemented:
Map is created -> Scenario Players play the custom map and stay because they like it. ->Map makers are punished in order to prevent them from making Scenario Players leave -> Map maker leaves. -> No new maps are created -> Scenario Players get bored and leave -> No Trouble.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

Making such a map should be rewarded not punished, but the possibility of it being taken down should also be taken away.

how could you reward map people who make such maps?
1) protocoins? useless
2) trophies? useless
3) supporter status? useless
4) map getting featured? useless

you can't replace freedom with shinny little things.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

Obviously allowing it to be edited/clones by anyone is a bad idea

and i agree, but this bad idea had to be contained before it could do any harm.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

That would not only discourage map-makers from making a good map but would make them just take it down before it's a community asset as you call it. When a map reaches a certain number of plays per day though it shouldn't be allowed to be deleted without a mod's AND admin's approval.

what if i just hide it before it reaches that number?

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

The reason I say mod and admin is because someone could just be buddies with a mod and convince them to delete it easily, but now they also needs enough reason for an admin to be swayed. Map-makers should be able to hide it for editing though, because gameplay and strategy changes such as the recent one would require several players to edit their maps. It shouldn't be hidden for more than say 10 days (can debate on time), and the reason for them being hidden should be recorded.

why would you limit the days a map can be hided, there is no issues with the current unlimited hiding time. For example tik-tok's ww2 is hided because he fucked the map up by accident, with this new feature the map would be unhided yet unplayable.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 06:27

Obviously some changes might take more than this and if so the map-maker of a popular map should request to a mod for a reason for the prolonged hide. The creators of popular maps should also be rewarded when they reach a certain amount of plays. Maybe 1 protocoin for every 100 plays (does that seem a bit low?), and 100 protocoins for reaching 500,1000, and 1500 plays. Increase the protocoins by 50 for every higher 500 plays.

i can't see any good reason to implement such a system (is not like we have evil map makers terrorizing people)

लिखा द्वारा Tundy, 30.10.2015 at 12:54

-That's because of the decreasing numbers of map-makers, and putting rewards would motivate people.
-I'm not saying take away the hide feature, but make it so when a map gets so popular there has to be actual reason presented to mods/admins to hide it.
-Do you propose any other way to reward map-makers? Clovis proposed actual money, and that seems good. Only issue is actually getting admins to agree. Also no freedom is being taken away but it's just being more restricted by the fact of having valid reasons (editing etc) to hide.
-If you hide a map before reaching that number then you made the map for nothing because it won't get played anymore
-The limit is only so people don't use their maps as leverage to hide/unhide. If there is a valid reason then it's fine to hide it forever if its unplayable such as Ultimate WW2.


I don't think there is too much wrong with the current system, but since the topic was brought up this was my opinion on it.

लिखा द्वारा clovis1122, 30.10.2015 at 12:41

Probably status quo as with so many fails at promotion I doubt they invest money in something like this.

But hey, it is their decisión after all...

Imo they could take the 10℅ of the money that they earn from this game montly, after paying servers, mainternance, etc... And if it is more than $100 dollars, they could give it to the top 5 scenario makers and top 5 custom map makers....

But the question comes again. Would you give away the right to delete your map for $10 or $5 dollars montly? Maybe if your map is extremely popular... $25 dollars? mmm...

You are silly, if you have to pay people to stay in your game then somewhere among the way you fucked up.
I make maps because i enjoy playing my creations, i don't make them for money or fame.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

-That's because of the decreasing numbers of map-makers, and putting rewards would motivate people.

and you are welcome to motivate people, but the other guys in this topic try to pass punishment disguised as a good intention:

"don't worry, after i beat the fuck out of you and piss on your body, i will take you out for some ice cream DDD"

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

-I'm not saying take away the hide feature, but make it so when a map gets so popular there has to be actual reason presented to mods/admins to hide it.

there is many loopholes on this

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

-Do you propose any other way to reward map-makers? Clovis proposed actual money, and that seems good. Only issue is actually getting admins to agree. Also no freedom is being taken away but it's just being more restricted by the fact of having valid reasons (editing etc) to hide.

No, i can only talk for those who are already make maps. If you want to motivate new people then perhaps i am not the right person ;P

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

-If you hide a map before reaching that number then you made the map for nothing because it won't get played anymore

I will just clone it, and have the map with less plays be published. Or i won't publish at all, and only host it when i feel like playing it.

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

-The limit is only so people don't use their maps as leverage to hide/unhide. If there is a valid reason then it's fine to hide it forever if its unplayable such as Ultimate WW2.

>Pyrrhus
>Aetius
>Hellraiser
>Tik-Tok
>Fappino?
>Me

boooo be afraid of the spooky 6

लिखा द्वारा The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 13:07

I don't think there is too much wrong with the current system, but since the topic was brought up this was my opinion on it.

your post is really helpful because i can raise questions when they actually matter, if i had waited until this madness was implemented then it would have been too late.

So much drama over this made me rethink my stance on maps & mapmakers. I agree that mapmakers should have almost full control over their maps:

They should be able to choose who they want to collaborate with

They should be able to choose who can clone their map

They should be able to unpublish or publish the map at will

They should not be able to ban players from their maps

I hate the ban list with passion. It has been proven time and time again that it is a flawed system and prone to abuse, from both sides. A better solution should be designed and implemented.

And by the way, they already are part of the game, as explained on the Terms of Service:

अवतरण:

4. Custom Maps ownership
Custom Maps and Scenarios and all associated media are and shall remain the sole and exclusive property of atWar. Without limiting the foregoing, you hereby assign to atWar all of your rights, title and interest in and to all Custom Maps, and agree that should atWar decide that it is necessary, you agree to execute future assignments promptly upon receiving such a request from atWar. Additionally, atWar shall have the right to keep the Custom Maps online even if their creator requests removal. In case of blocking users from playing your map, you agree to provide solid reasons for the block upon request.

(the ToS that you accepted when you created an account, by the way)

लिखा द्वारा notserral, 30.10.2015 at 13:38

So much drama over this made me rethink my stance on maps & mapmakers. I agree that mapmakers should have almost full control over their maps:

They should be able to choose who they want to collaborate with

They should be able to choose who can clone their map

They should be able to unpublish or publish the map at will

They should not be able to ban players from their maps

I hate the ban list with passion. It has been proven time and time again that it is a flawed system and prone to abuse, from both sides. A better solution should be designed and implemented.

I don't like the banlist either, but can you (or anyone) think of a system that can't be abused?

I just feel sad that people ended up taking down their maps over some stupid stuff that got blown out of proportion. What's the point of spending hours creating a map that will never be played again?

I guess we can agree on rewarding map makers, and definitely not allowing maps to be publicly clones/edited. The hide/not being able to hide thing is the topic of debate and I don't see it being implemented soon anyway since admins are working on HTML5. I also agree with Pulse for a better solution on the ban list (as it is one of the reasons of the high leverage of map makers).

How about this for a ban list fix:

Bans are sorted into several categories. These would include leaving, WF'ing, disobeying map rules (no attacking something for first turn or moving into a certain area) only if the rules are clearly stated, profanity in chat, and anything else that would be a reason for ban. These categories would be specified when banning a player, and then an ''evidence'' box is introduced below it. There a SS is provided or at least an SS of player reports. From there it's up to a mod to allow the ban or reject it, and instead of having a ''banlist appeal thread'' you have a ''banlist rejection thread''. I think this would be more beneficial because the ban isn't instantly effective and has to go through a mod before being effective and that means there is judgment whether it's fair or not beforehand.

Something else that nobody here is talking about is how every time someone complains about being banned the mods unban them even though the bans are justified in most cases

I would trade my ability to hide a keystone map( a map deemed valuable and required for the well being of atwar) only and only if #1 and #2 are added:

#1.- a term-based position who's only job is to regulate the ban lists (no more mods regulating ban lists).
- the person who holds this position is replaced every 30 days, a person can be in this position unlimited number of times but he can't be more than once in a row.

#2.- collective ban-lists are added
-a collective ban list, is a ban list in which multiple people can add/remove people to it. (bans here can also be appealed)

---

consider this a compromise, I am open to ideas for small changes to #1.

People pay money to have ability to make map=they actually bought the map editer=they have their own design=THEY DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT
if community wants to take someone's map it should offer something in return(protocoins+medals..etc)
map makers don't make the map for the community they make it to get a place they feel like owners on it as i think. so they are able to do anything they want as long as no one want to buy their work....
imagine if you built a house and then governament came and took it from you faggots

लिखा द्वारा Guest, 29.10.2015 at 13:36

It is played every day at least a few times and remember the threads where autistic wallspammers were crying to republish it...

So? Let them cry, the ultimate decision is of the mapmakers, not the players.