Thank you Amok & Ivan (And Sun Tzu)

Given the current state of this game, and me not being sure if I would ever have the possibility again to say this to any of you guys, but I would really like to thank you: Amok and Ivan, for creating this wonderful game back in 2010 and with that bringing all the great people I've met, the friends I've made, and the many many great moments and memories I've also experienced over the many years on this incredible and special game.

After the Golden era of Call of Duty (MW2; BO1; MW3; BO2) I was in need of a new game to get addicted to (and I did already play Afterwind during that time, but not as much as I did afterwards) and I did get hooked up on this game again. Like I explained in my other post, the community-feellike atmosphere this game offered is what kept me logging in for many many years, even long after I lost most of the interests in competitively competing in the game. There is plenty of things this game has taught me personally, but I think I can speak for any non-native English speaker when I say that this game has offered many of us a platform where we could sharpen and perfection our English skills, and become sophisticated native-like speakers in the end 😉. And for that I am infinitely grateful, because it's actually something that ended up being very useful in my line of work. On personal level however, this game has also really opened my eyes as a naïve teenager at the time whom had a very fantasy-like view of the world, and thanks to the many chats, political debates, long conversations and banters I've had with many many people all over the world from many different cultures, it made me see things very differently in the world, for which I'm grateful. And the never-ending bragging rights of 200iq of topography, didn't hurt either.

I know a lot of people at the time cheered when you guys sold Afterwind, because we've been hearing 99,5% for many many years and most of us were all fed up with barely any updates from within the staff team, but I still think the 2010-2017/2018 period were the best years this game has ever had and I am glad that I could be a part of it during most of that period. Special thanks to Sun Tzu as well, whom picked up the control of the staff team during your times of absence, he really kept the game running for a while, before it got sold.

Given how things turned out to be over the last couple of years, I guess the saying: 'You don't know what you got till it's gone' unfortunately really did apply in this case.

Unfortunately it's not possible to write all of this on my own account anymore and I have to refer to an alt, but I hope both of you are doing very well in your personal lifes and I'm sure it must bring up some feelings for you guys as well seeing the game in the current state as it is.

Thank you for the wonderful times.

Waffel

Cheers Waffel!

Wtf is with this obituary type kanker farewell letters lately

लिखा द्वारा Your Laki, 05.03.2025 at 10:53

Wtf is with this obituary type kanker farewell letters lately

Your Laki on position 1 scares.

Do you know something that we don't and if so what?

Love ya

लिखा द्वारा Almighty Life, 05.03.2025 at 15:36

Love ya

Damn I remember Gifted Inc

लिखा द्वारा Commodus, 05.03.2025 at 15:09

Do you know something that we don't and if so what?

Looks more like you don't know something most of us do...

At the rate this post is going, it's likely to get more likes than that other thank you post (you know who I mean)

Can we bring back waffel

Fuck this guy who is this waffel guy

Waffel always posting gay shit.... Some things never change :xaxaxaxa

लिखा द्वारा sirivann, 10.03.2025 at 21:02

Waffel always posting gay shit.... Some things never change :xaxaxaxa

7 years ago I reckoned he couldn't get any gayer or more useless. But the motherfucker did it. He actually pulled it off.

Ban waffel again

Despite having our differences, Waffel is right. idk why people are having a go at Waffel for saying valid things.

Yesterday you couldn't make games for 10 hours, no one could play because the server would not allow you to fucking make games. Something needs to change, either Dave starts careing about the game again or he sells it, not much else to see to it. And, if Dave wants to care about the game again, maybe he can start by unbanning some people who were critical of him, because after all atWar is a business and having people banned in a game that is every day more inactive is pointless.

2 months ago I stumbled upon a screenshot i took 2 years ago, that showed that there were 200 people online. right now if we get to 120 on a saturday at peak times, its a fucking miracle. the game has been dying since i started playing, I remember Agel telling me the game has been dying since 2015. There are always new faces, right now those are Puma, Cheetah and Tiger, but with every so called "generation" they become smaller and more people quit.


I understand that dealing with comp players like myself is a pain in the ass, but that is because we worry about the state of the game. I personally have been struggling for time to play the game, and that applies really to most comp players. But in 2019, when i was starting comp, I could log in like 1 hour and a half a day and I could play 1 or 2 3v3s. And on weekends I could play a world game with 15 players, now getting to 10 is a stretch, which is a sad because i don't really enjoy those types of World games with few people, i like the frenetic action

I wasn't even planning to write this much, it just came as I was writing. Just some of my thoughts.

लिखा द्वारा ayoii, 16.03.2025 at 02:08

लिखा द्वारा Palmitas, 15.03.2025 at 13:07

---

I always said this: I believe that people change. People can sometimes see that they fucked up, and correct it. I believe Dave can change mistakes he did in the past.

As for profits, it is a very tough spot indeed, but you can increase activity by just unbanning people, its a no brainer to atleast start from that and give it a shot.

लिखा द्वारा Palmitas, 16.03.2025 at 18:42

I always said this: I believe that people change. People can sometimes see that they fucked up, and correct it. I believe Dave can change mistakes he did in the past.

As for profits, it is a very tough spot indeed, but you can increase activity by just unbanning people, its a no brainer to atleast start from that and give it a shot.

The only mistake I've made with atWar was actually caring TOO much about the community and what other people think. It caused me to waste too much time talking to people trying to make them see my position. Nobody cares. Waffel is the perfect example. I spent HOURS talking with that dude, listening to his concerns, telling him mine, and trying to reach understanding. Then he goes off and posts things which only show me that he absolutely did not understand anything I said. The lesson I've learned: people are gonna bitch no matter what. Nothing I say will change their minds. Just do what you need to do for the best interests of the game and ignore the noise.

If I had it to do over, I would have banned people faster and not wasted so much time explaining why. Activity was already declining before, and continued declining after.... banning a few toxic people who needed to go didn't do anything to change the course the game was already on. In other words: no great loss. The upshot: somewhat less moderation issues to have to deal with. The trade-off was and is worth it.

It does irritate me however when people say I "don't care" about atWar. It's easy for people to sit back and make accusations when they don't have the real life responsibilities to deal with like I do. I know better than to expect any sympathy or understanding from this community. But I do keep atWar running and deal with the emergencies when things break, no matter how busy I am with other things. Is that the act of someone who doesn't care?

लिखा द्वारा Dave, 01.04.2025 at 23:41

लिखा द्वारा Palmitas, 16.03.2025 at 18:42

I always said this: I believe that people change. People can sometimes see that they fucked up, and correct it. I believe Dave can change mistakes he did in the past.

As for profits, it is a very tough spot indeed, but you can increase activity by just unbanning people, its a no brainer to atleast start from that and give it a shot.

---

Im gonna dissect your answer into parts.

"The only mistake I've made with atWar was actually caring TOO much about the community and what other people think." Thats truly debatable to be honest. I have seen people in Discord completly disagree with this, I do think you did care, until you didn't. Keep in mind im a 2019 player, and I remember that at one point you gave away 1 week premium to everyone because of server issues, I know you did in fact care, until you didn't.

"Waffel is the perfect example. I spent HOURS talking with that dude, listening to his concerns, telling him mine, and trying to reach understanding." There my friend, you did the mistake of listening to Waffel. He says 5% correct things 95% retarded stuff. It's not worth it to listen to every single person, you need to listen to the correct person.

"The lesson I've learned: people are gonna bitch no matter what. Nothing I say will change their minds. Just do what you need to do for the best interests of the game and ignore the noise." Some people yes, but putting all in the same box is stupid. Im gonna be honest to you, if Bugs is unbanned I doubt he would cheat again. did he cheat with the 10000 alts he made? he didn't. He just wants to keep playing the game. Keeping him banned is just affecting the activity of the competitive scene: which is probably annoying to you, I get it, we are annoying as fuck sometimes. But that is because we genuinely care about the game. Waffel is an idiot most times, and at this point he doesn't even wanna get unbanned, I know it. However, banning so many people was NOT in the interests of the game. So many people were banned that probably didn't need to be banned on that November 2021 fiasco, that it slowly killed competitive I still don't know why Trystane (Augustus Caesar) was banned. I will not get it. So many people deleted because they were angry that it makes you think. Mesopotamia and Alois were key people in the community and one was head supporter. Makes you think why they deleted aswell.
I was talking to my clanmate Tiger the other day, who is a newbie rank 8, and he told me "The only thing I want is for the game to be more active to be able to cw more" which pains me a lot because in 2019 there was daily cws. It was something normal that I was brought up into. Banning people WAS NOT in the best interests of the game. Banning some? sure. But there is nothing more pointless, as an example, than Osix's ban. He deserved some kind of punishment for being toxic? 1000%. But permaban is insane, considering the person that permabanned him was even more toxic than him. Also, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you gotta ban them, Waffel could be shouting that he hates you, but imo, as someone that loves stuff like the American 1st amendment, as long as you are not being threateaned, I doubt you should ban them.

"If I had it to do over, I would have banned people faster and not wasted so much time explaining why. Activity was already declining before, and continued declining after.... banning a few toxic people who needed to go didn't do anything to change the course the game was already on. In other words: no great loss. The upshot: somewhat less moderation issues to have to deal with. The trade-off was and is worth it." That would be true if the people were being toxic as fuck, but most of them weren't. You didn't back down of something that basically killed comp, and because of that night in November 2021, the competitive scene is currently what it is. Let's not even start with the head supporter, that used a fucking range bug in a cw vs me, and was previously banned because of a rangebug (which, to be honest, should warrant a removal of the role, and is more deserving of a permaban than other people that YOU or the Admin team banned) Activity kept declining because of what? in Comp because you banned key people in the playerbase and most people deleted their accounts because of that. But, also besides that, WHY THE FUCK ARE THE TUTORIALS COMING SOON SINCE I HAVE MEMORY? Atwar's problem was always retention, you would think the best thing to work would be to try and retain more players, but nope, tutorials are still always coming soon. what a fucking dissapointment, not gonna lie. and there was a great loss, let's not lie to ourselves. Atleast from a comp perspective, that killed comp x3 faster than it would have. Also, always that you have less players the moderation will be less. it's retarded as fuck to say that was an upshot. "If less people vote, there are less votes to count" No shit sherlock.

"It does irritate me however when people say I "don't care" about atWar. It's easy for people to sit back and make accusations when they don't have the real life responsibilities to deal with like I do." Dave, I said this to you once, I'll say it again. IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO DEAL WITH ATWAR, SELL IT. The game is in a state of limbo because nothing happens. Everyone could agree to stop playing the game until you sell it and you prob wouldn't care. I also do not understand why don't you sell the game, considering it's surely in the red.

"I know better than to expect any sympathy or understanding from this community. But I do keep atWar running and deal with the emergencies when things break, no matter how busy I am with other things. Is that the act of someone who doesn't care?" David, thats the fucking minimum, thats what we expect from someone who is the owner, its the minimum thing that he should do. The fact that you even mention this is an embarrassment, I really need to say that.

In 2022 this topic by Waffel would have been insta-archived. What changed? Sascha is the only mod. No other mod is active. Lelouch is no longer active like he was 2 months ago, but even then he did no mod tasks. Dire doesn't even look in the forums, but I don't even know if he is active anymore, considering the current state of the game. Dave, I would seriously consider selling the game, Im not the right person to tell you this, sure. But the game is in the red and you don't have time to deal with it. That should be enough to guarantee a sale from your part. And most of the community at this point hates you, some say it and others don't. Im not trying to be a fucking idiot like Waffel, ok?

Also, you spent a lot of time in world map 2.0 just to result in a huge failure. Why? Maybe because... you need premium to make a game in world map 2.0. I'm not even joking. Make non-prems be able to make that map and put it a 150% sp increase and watch how everyone will play it.

Just my thoughts.

PS: Waffel's post has 26 likes. There is a reason for this. And let's not forget it took you 1 month to answer to this.

I don't care what Dave says now, I just want Lion unbanned, and by extension the rest of the players.

I just wanna play again, is that too much to ask for? Dave, this is business, so please treat it like one.. Does Mark Zuckerberg care what people talk about him on facebook or instagram and goes to ban people? NO.. Its a fucking business and he should do things that will make him money, not argue with cockroaches on forums like an old grandma.. Who cares what we think and speak about you? Just do your best to make this business better. You get money, we get fun by playing our game, win-win, is that hard?

लिखा द्वारा El Serbio, 02.04.2025 at 09:29

I just wanna play again, is that too much to ask for? Dave, this is business, so please treat it like one.. Does Mark Zuckerberg care what people talk about him on facebook or instagram and goes to ban people? NO.. Its a fucking business and he should do things that will make him money, not argue with cockroaches on forums like an old grandma.. Who cares what we think and speak about you? Just do your best to make this business better. You get money, we get fun by playing our game, win-win, is that hard?

Would be true if only AtWar generated a good profits, not to even mention that has no community feedback, active development, team letters, active discord server with daily and seasonal events, Q&A, etc.
The list could go on, but I will keep it short.

I know very little about the past and i am very much not entitled to speak about what happened about the banned people and why. But, beeing active between 2020 and now, i can certainly point out that is foolish to ignore the correlation between all those banned people and the declining activity of the game (espetially competitive, and clearly the absence of competitive scene is logically related to the "less retention problem", even if that was already an issue it is clearly not helpfull banning expert people).

Its true, its pointless to talk with some people. As palm said its pointless to talk with SOME people, not all of them. If a bunch of people says they will play if some guy like Lion or whatever would be unbanned, whats the issue about it? Unbann and see what happens. People keep playing? Fine. They bother you? Bann them again. Indeed not much chatting-caring-hours needed.

As Hine said, we are just a bunch of guys willing to play a game we like, and this is all feedback for you man. I never spoke with you Dave, it is true, it is pointless to talk with some people, dont be one of those.

लिखा द्वारा Dave, 01.04.2025 at 23:41

The only mistake I've made with atWar was actually caring TOO much about the community and what other people think. It caused me to waste too much time talking to people trying to make them see my position. Nobody cares. Waffel is the perfect example. I spent HOURS talking with that dude, listening to his concerns, telling him mine, and trying to reach understanding. Then he goes off and posts things which only show me that he absolutely did not understand anything I said. The lesson I've learned: people are gonna bitch no matter what. Nothing I say will change their minds. Just do what you need to do for the best interests of the game and ignore the noise.

If I had it to do over, I would have banned people faster and not wasted so much time explaining why. Activity was already declining before, and continued declining after.... banning a few toxic people who needed to go didn't do anything to change the course the game was already on. In other words: no great loss. The upshot: somewhat less moderation issues to have to deal with. The trade-off was and is worth it.

It does irritate me however when people say I "don't care" about atWar. It's easy for people to sit back and make accusations when they don't have the real life responsibilities to deal with like I do. I know better than to expect any sympathy or understanding from this community. But I do keep atWar running and deal with the emergencies when things break, no matter how busy I am with other things. Is that the act of someone who doesn't care?

Reacting to your message

Being a leader (of atwar in this case) will inevitably result in people lashing out at you occasionally, regardless of what you do. Trust me when I say that the players in here - who possess an IQ higher than 90 - are well aware of you caring about atwar and nurturing it throughout the years. They are also aware of what you've got right and wrong though, that's better to keep in mind.

It's good to see you finally admitting that community management is not your task. Let a community manager do it instead. Moderation is not your task either. Let moderators do it. If you meant "caring too much" in this sense, you are right.

Palm also said this... I will reiterate. Players are good at identifying problems, but horrible at solving them. Do not listen to anyone, put their feedbacks in a bag and conclude yourself what should be done. Polls sometimes don't work in your favor either because players don't know what they really want, they don't understand game development.


Comparing AW to other games

One thing is certain... atWar is not moving forward for a decade. Rome: Total War is a strategy game that had been released back in 2004, 21 years ago. It has 1000 players daily on steamcharts and a small but loyal fanbase/community playing it together and modding it ever since. This is similar to what you have in atWar with map makers and the competitive players. It is natural that every other kind of player abandoned this game (scenario players for instance). TW Rome has maybe 5-10 modders at this point who still log in sometimes to keep their legendary mods alive that people keep playing 20+ years after launch. Now imagine you're the chairman and you ban 8 or 9 of these modders, then claiming it is a loud minority. I mean you're not wrong, mathematically or statistically speaking, but in the end you're still wrong.

The key difference is evidently that there's a new Total War game every 3 years or so in a continuous development cycle, which keeps hooking in more and more people, refreshing the core playerbase over time. In fact, the Total War games probably have a couple thousand people playing them world wide, not accounting for the hundreds of thousands who play around a new one's launch as newbies or game tourists. AtWar could easily have this too if it had bots, maybe a seasonal design (gameplay wise, not only CWs).


My suggestion which you may or may not ignore

I'm basically a nobody (to you) so I doubt you'd take my advice, but I'd still recommend you something in retrospect (perhaps does not matter anymore) -> focus on improving/developing the game itself, maybe even outsource that and focus on the management of it (depending on how much more money you'd like to throw at the game after all). Implement some of the suggestions that people keep pushing in a feedback format for years. Adding bots for instance - I know it is a huge challenge programming wise.

Let's say you take my advice and start implementing those things in your free time, or hire someone to do it. Well, the first question that comes to mind is... "OK, if I change so many things deeply embedded into the game for years, or add a lot of new crap, will the very few remaining players also leave?". The answer to that is very tricky. Most likely, yes, most of them will, but you also get the chance to push advertisements and experiment to get a higher retention rate. Alternatively, you could keep the existing IP and make atWar 2. That way, the core legacy playerbase (veterans) could stay here and enjoy the game until they (or you) see fit.


Current situation and the "atwar is dying" spam

Game development is not easy, at all. Especially when software associated with it keeps aging and aging... However, the stagnation we have right now is the absolute worst thing we can have. In the name of the few remaining players, please do something other than that, and keep us updated on what is happening (currently - for years - basically nothing).

People are complaining a lot lately that the game is dying, which is not true, but it's certainly not alive and thriving. It reached a point of stagnation where it slowly crawls towards abandonment. You can change that Dave. Only you. Sell atwar... make atwar 2... hire a dev and lock him up in a basement... get on a remote island in the pacific for a month and sell your soul coding 24/7 to improve the game... appoint waffel as the dictator of atwar with a pink shield as a late April's fools joke... just do something, we beg. A major shift in decision making is needed for the few of us and potentially future players.

So yes, most players don't actually mean the game is dying, they just feel that we are moving towards abandonment, because that's what is happening pretty much in front of our eyes. Even if you insist you'll keep it up and running, what's the point of that if you have 10 people remaining in the lobby and no games running? I also think you don't mean that seriously because it sounds kind of evil and disrespectful to let a game die, then keep it running blank, carrying it as a shield saying "see? I did not shut it down". I would love to think that you have more respect for us and yourself, only saying that as a PR stunt to calm us down among the atwar is dying spam.


About banning people... briefly

I honestly support both you and most other people in this thread. If a person severly breaks the guidelines of a platform, they should be banned. That's it.

On the other hand, I can also agree with Palm for example, that banning 10 veteran players in a game with ~100 active players daily is essentially like shooting yourself in the foot. You have to see that.

In reality, your opinion regarding those bans would be completely valid and I would support you in it, if the game was actually being gradually improved over time, aside from that.


Thanks for reading all that, in case you did.

लिखा द्वारा Lev Davidovic, 02.04.2025 at 11:14

..

Its true, its pointless to talk with some people. As palm said its pointless to talk with SOME people, not all of them. If a bunch of people says they will play if some guy like Lion or whatever would be unbanned, whats the issue about it? Unbann and see what happens. People keep playing? Fine. They bother you? Bann them again. Indeed not much chatting-caring-hours needed.

..

लिखा द्वारा Dave, 01.04.2025 at 23:41

लिखा द्वारा Palmitas, 16.03.2025 at 18:42

I always said this: I believe that people change. People can sometimes see that they fucked up, and correct it. I believe Dave can change mistakes he did in the past.

As for profits, it is a very tough spot indeed, but you can increase activity by just unbanning people, its a no brainer to atleast start from that and give it a shot.

The only mistake I've made with atWar was actually caring TOO much about the community and what other people think. It caused me to waste too much time talking to people trying to make them see my position. Nobody cares. Waffel is the perfect example. I spent HOURS talking with that dude, listening to his concerns, telling him mine, and trying to reach understanding. Then he goes off and posts things which only show me that he absolutely did not understand anything I said. The lesson I've learned: people are gonna bitch no matter what. Nothing I say will change their minds. Just do what you need to do for the best interests of the game and ignore the noise.

If I had it to do over, I would have banned people faster and not wasted so much time explaining why. Activity was already declining before, and continued declining after.... banning a few toxic people who needed to go didn't do anything to change the course the game was already on. In other words: no great loss. The upshot: somewhat less moderation issues to have to deal with. The trade-off was and is worth it.

It does irritate me however when people say I "don't care" about atWar. It's easy for people to sit back and make accusations when they don't have the real life responsibilities to deal with like I do. I know better than to expect any sympathy or understanding from this community. But I do keep atWar running and deal with the emergencies when things break, no matter how busy I am with other things. Is that the act of someone who doesn't care?

Dave, do you mind spending few minutes to write your plans for this game and everything? Its means a lot to some of us to hear what is happening with this game and future plans for it? When i say future plans, i mean in this year. Thanks in advance.